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Interview with Nabih Berri, Speaker of the Lebanese Parliament
Al Arabiya TV
(Note - The following was translated from Arabic)
Q: Welcome to all viewers. This is Mohammad Noon speaking to you from Tehran, and specifically from the official residence of
the Iranian president, where we are meeting Mr. Nabih Berri, the Speaker of the Lebanese parliament.
Nabih Berri, on behalf of all of our viewers, I would like to welcome you to Al Arabiya news channel.
NABIH BERRI: Thank you very much for inviting me.
Q: As you know, the situation is very sensitive in Lebanon. I want to delve directly into the heart of the matter. I want to ask you about the arguments on the legality
of the recent cabinet meeting, in which the first draft by the international tribunal (on the assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri) was discussed and approved.
I want to ask you, Mr. Berri, if you think
that this meeting was constitutional or not, especially after the resignation of the ministers from the Hezbollah and Amal movements.
MR. BERRI: Let me first begin by clarifying certain things about what was published in
the Lebanese media on this subject.
What I have said is that the present government still has a two- thirds majority and that any government with a two-thirds majority should be able to continue to function as long as it
doesn't interfere with the principles of the consensus, expressed in the national reconciliation agreement in Lebanon.
Since there is a certain sector in the Lebanese society - regardless of what this sector may be -
that is not represented in this government after the resignations of the ministers representing the Amal and Hezbollah factions, I urge Prime Minister Siniora to appoint Shiite ministers from other groups (not Amal or
Hezbollah) and to keep going with the current government.
This means that without the inclusion of the Shiite factions in the government, all meetings of this government will be considered unconstitutional because they
contradict the previously agreed national reconciliation agreement.
The excuse made for holding the last government meeting, or the attempt to skirt around the above principle is that the resignation of the Amal and
Hezbollah ministers was not accepted by the prime minister. This is not enough, because the government meeting can only be considered legal after asking these ministers to reconsider their resignations.
Q. Mr. Nabih
Berri, allow me to be more blunt. I am asking for a precise and clear answer from you about the constitutionality of the recent cabinet meeting, in which the first draft by the international tribunal was considered and approved.
How will you deal with this problem in the House of Representatives?
MR. BERRI: This meeting of the government was not constitutional. No one is allowed to skirt around the above mentioned principles of the
national reconciliation agreement, and therefore this government meeting was not constitutional.
Q: What do you specifically mean by this government meeting was not constitutional?
What does this mean for the decisions that were made by the government in this meeting?
MR. BERRI: Regardless of the subject being discussed or the decisions made, this meeting of the government was not constitutional.
I am referring to a basic principle of the national reconciliation agreement. I also want to take this opportunity to warn this government - and this is really unfortunate - not to try to misrepresent our demand for
holding early consultations and our resignations from the government, as if we were against the international tribunal.
This international tribunal was previously approved by the Lebanese people during the national
dialogue conference. There were three major subjects related to the establishment of the international tribune, the international investigations and the coordination of these investigations, which did not require more than an
hour and five minutes to argue and agree upon.
There was complete consensus on this subject. Therefore, I believe that it is not necessary, and that it is not in the best interests of the Lebanese people that this
government continue to create illusory victories at the expense of the Amal and Hezbollah movements, when it keeps misrepresenting our actions and giving the impression that we were against this international tribunal and
against one group or another.
The international tribunal is a demand of all the Lebanese factions. The differences between us relate to one thing only. As representatives of the public interest, and as happens whenever
new legislation is submitted for approval, we insist on going over all the details. But on the question of having an international tribunal, we have no disagreements whatsoever.
Q: Why then did you time the announcement
of your ministers' resignations a short time before the convening of the government meeting, in which it was supposed to discuss and approve the draft of the international tribunal?
Why are you afraid of this international tribunal, despite your pubic support for its appointment?
MR. BERRI: I prefer that this question be changed or rephrased. It should be asked as follows - Why did Prime Minister
Siniora in particular, wait until the end of the last consultation session in order to announce the convening of a government meeting without conferring with anyone.
Everyone knows that this (the international tribunal
draft) arrived less than 24 hours earlier, and that even the translation was not ready for distribution to all the factions who formed this government.
Mr. Siniora has committed the same mistake before - a mistake that
resulted in the abstention of our ministers from attending government meetings.
We should ask Mr. Siniora about the reasons for his continued misrepresentation of these facts, which creates the impression that certain
Lebanese groups are against this international tribunal? This is of course not true.
Q: Prime Minister Siniora has recently begun to talk about the minority intransigence. He claims that you are a minority group that
wants the right to veto his government, and that you ask for a one-third opposition bloc in his government, which you in turn call the one-third constructive minorities.
MR. BERRI: I am sorry to have to say that these statements are not based on facts.
This is the way I felt about this government even before the consultation sessions had begun. This feeling was one of the main reasons
behind my call for this consultation conference with all the Lebanese forces.
I felt that there was an exclusive leadership council which makes all the major decisions. This council constitutes a leadership circle that
governs Lebanon under the disguise of a majority government. They do not assign any importance to our constitution or to the Taef accords.
This is what I had felt, and this is the reason for my request for a dialogue
meeting. This is what I felt before asking for a consultation conference with all the Lebanese forces.
We asked to debate these issues in this conference for national dialogue and consultations. There is no such thing as
an intransigent minority. We are a minority that wants to participate in decisions, and we are the minority that was the basis of this government. Without us no such government would have been possible.
Unfortunately,
some ministers in this government have changed direction, which has made a big split in the government. The minority is not asking for anything more than real participation in the decision-making processes.
Now, there
are no institutions in the state. Instead, there is a leadership circle that has replaced the work of these institutions.
I am sorry to have to say this. I really do not like to say this and do not want to make
accusations and counter-attacks amongst us. We all must work for the benefit of the greater Lebanese interests. But this is the reality that has been sensed by a lot of Lebanese people, just as I have experienced it on many an
occasion, and especially during the meeting that took place this past Saturday.
That is why I spoke to all the attendees of the conference for the dialogue and consolations. I told all of them that after my visit to
Iraq, I felt that I may be the target of assassination dozens of times, much as was done with Rafik Hariri, the former prime minister of Lebanon. I also told them that Lebanon may experience dozens of invasions in the same way
that Lebanon saw last July. I finished my speech by reminding everyone that 'God will not attempt to change people until they begin to change themselves' (Koranic verse).
God is my witness. This is what I told them
during the conference for dialogue and consolations. I said this because of my strong feelings about the way the nation is being governed and managed, without consulting with all the groups.
Our prophet Mohammad says, 'He who consults with others, also benefits from their wisdom'.
Q: With your permission Mr. Berri, I want to describe your statements as dangerous, and that they may indicate that Lebanon is on
the verge of another national disaster.
Do you think that we will return to a series of new assassinations in Lebanon?
MR. BERRI: These statements are intended as a warning, and they are intended to be harsh. I
wanted these statements to be as harsh as facts. I wanted to issue a warning to all the Lebanese people, and to tell them that Lebanon cannot be governed without national conciliation amongst all the groups.
Q: I also
want to be very clear with you that the Lebanese people expect you to provide them with security, not with things that might frighten them. Lebanon is living under extreme pressure.
Are we now on the verge of having factional and religious fragmentation in Lebanon?
Or might you say that we are on the verge of political division based on factional and religious beliefs?
MR. BERRI: You have
asked me to clearly state my opinions. I am very sorry to tell that our political leaders convert everything in Lebanon into sectarian or religious matters. This reinforces the existing sectarian sensitivities which may lead to
some dangerous repercussions.
How do you treat these sensitivities? Do you want to tell me that this can be done by the return to the beginning of our national agreements?
The crux of all the disputes in Lebanon is political.
Q: By resigning from this government in this way, you as representatives of the Shiite sect in Lebanon (Amal and Hezbollah), may have been responsible for
strengthening this impression.
Isn't this true?
MR. BERRI: You may be able to say that if we had one specific Shiite request from this government.
I challenge you now, and I am sorry to put you on the spot,
to point to any specific Shiite demand that we asked for. We have asked for the participation of the Free National Trend by assigning them a specific number of government seats. We did not demand any addition of a Shiite
minister at all.
We have asked for the increased participation of all groups, everyone accepts the Shiite groups. We asked for the representation of some other groups in the government beyond the degree of their
electorate numbers.
Are these sectarian Shiite demands?
Q: There is a feeling that Nabih Berri, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, is the real president of Lebanon during this period, since both
President Lahoud and Prime Minister Siniora are being isolated because of the existing political disputes.
Some others claim that Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary General of the Hezbollah movement, is the real public
leader in Lebanon because of the great respect that he enjoys. These people continue to allege that the Shiite sect represented by yourself and Mr. Nasrallah is seeking to hold the reigns of power, even at the expense of all
other political groups in Lebanon, including General Michel Aoun's group.
MR. BERRI: These are statements designed to increase the sensitivities amongst all the Lebanese groups. I reiterate that Lebanon will not be
governed this way. Let me give you some explanations.
It is true that the president of the Lebanese republic is chosen from the Maronite Christian sect in Lebanon, but one elected. He represents all the Lebanese people.
The same is also true of the Chairman of the House of Representatives.
It is true that the Speaker of the House of Representatives is chosen from the Shiite sect, but once elected, he also represents all the Lebanese
people.
In the same manner, the office of the prime minister is supposed to be occupied by someone from the Muslim Sunni sect, but he also represents all the Lebanese people.
From the beginning, I said that I want
to be a servant to all the Lebanese people. I am a servant to this Lebanese dialogue. I am a servant to Lebanese unity. But when we convene at the roundtable of national dialogue, I revert back to being the chairman of a
political group - the Amal movement, and to being one of the many parties at this table. This is true also of Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary General of the Hezbollah movement, Saad al-Hariri, Walid Jumblat and so on and so on.
Everyone represents his party at the roundtable of national dialogue.
That is also why I insisted that all national groups be presented at this table, and that every issue must be unanimously approved. This means that if
any one person of the 14 factions sitting at the national roundtable, expresses opposition to a certain suggestion, the entire debate will stop at that point until he is persuaded to change his mind.
Despite what I said
before about my responsibilities as the Amal representative in these discussions, I behaved only as the Speaker of the House of Representatives. I have never attempted to behave as the president of the Lebanese republic or as
its prime minister. I behaved in accordance with my rights, duties and responsibilities for the mother institution in the republic of Lebanon, which is the legislative authority.
Q: Some people are afraid now about
turning Lebanon into another Iraq. In the past, the opposite was true. People talked about making Iraq into another Lebanon.
Do you think that these fears are justified? What will you do in the face of these anxieties?
MR. BERRI: The Arab problems will not be solved without internal Arab cooperation, and coordination with the Islamic republic of Iran. This is the only way to solve the Iraqi problem which will positively reflect on the
situation in Lebanon.
I want to clearly state from here, from Tehran, that I was honored to meet the political and Islamic leaders in Iran. Throughout these meetings, I concentrated on the return of normal relations
between the Islamic republic of Iran and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab countries.
I believe that only through this kind of cooperation, Iraq can be saved and that this may a great impact on Lebanon.
Q: Mr. Nabih Berri, we will continue our discussions on the Iranian role, especially in light of the accusations against you that you are diligently working for the Iranian - Syrian alliance.
After a short break,
we will ask you also about the possibilities of early elections and about the methods of finding solutions to these problems.
Dear viewers, we will return very shortly to continue this dialogue with Mr. Nabih Berri, the
Speaker of the Lebanese parliament.
(Commercial Break)
Q: Dear viewers, welcome back to our program, in which we will continue our special meeting with Nabih Berri, Speaker of the House of Representatives in
Lebanon.
Mr. Speaker of the House of Representatives, you are directly accused of belonging to or even leading the Iranian-Syrian alliance in Lebanon.
During your current visit to Iran, Iranian officials clearly
stated that Lebanon represents the beginning of the end of the American agenda for the new Middle East. These statements also support the allegations that you are working on behalf of this alliance, against the so-called
American alliance.
MR. BERRI: First, as I have previously said to you, it is a great honor for me to be accused of such things.
The Iranian republic has many defenders and protectors, and there is no need for
someone like me in Lebanon.
I believe that I have said before here and also on Al Jazeera TV, that Iran has many benefactors in this region, and that it does not need another Lebanese patron.
Q: Yes. But, you
might be one of the most important of these backers. Maybe because of your country's borders with Israel, amongst other things.
MR. BERRI: I believe that I have always claimed to be a Lebanese citizen first, and a
Lebanese citizen second, and an eleven star Lebanese national. Only after that, will I be able to serve any direction that opposes --
(Cross talk)
Q: Yes. Do you then think, given your expression, that the sun and
the moon in your constellation will be Syria and Lebanon?
MR. BERRI: Exactly. Exactly. There is nothing wrong in doing this.
I will be honored to belong to such an alliance that defends the citizens of my region
and that serves as a deterrence against Israel, which comes to destroy Lebanon once every three years.
This 'alliance of resistances' was founded even before the Islamic republic of Iran was created. This was true even
before the return of Imam Khomeini to Iran, and before the victory of the Islamic revolution.
Do not forget that this alliance was made by Imam Mosa al-Sadr, the former leader of Hezbollah, and the resistance movement of
Lebanon. I am stating these facts because I believe in these principles and the directions of this alliance. I do not deny this at all.
Unfortunately, some people will always try to misrepresent these facts by claiming
that I am a mere blind follower of everything Iranian. To all of these people, I say that I follow God almighty, only.
Q: Speaker of the House of Representatives, why don't you take back your resignations from the
government, and save the country a lot of danger that it is too ill to fight?
Do you have specific conditions for your return, or is the divorce you have previously mentioned to be considered final?
MR. BERRI:
Exactly. I believe that it was you who presented this subject. This subject was put before the government of Lebanon and before the newly-coined Revolution Council - the new name of the Leadership Council. This is the new name.
We are asking them to consider if they want a final divorce between the Lebanese groups, similar to the divorce we previously experienced in 1975 or the kind of divorce we had in 1969, or the one we experienced much
earlier in 1860.
We have tried this method many times before, without success.
The time has come to realize that people respect us as Lebanese, that people fight us as Lebanese, that people negotiate with us as
Lebanese.
When will we begin to truly feel Lebanese?
When will we start having a national vision that takes into consideration the desires of our Arab brethren, the aspirations of the countries in our region, the
tenets of the Islamic religion and the service of justice to all?
This is what I always wanted.
If the request for our true participation in the government is answered positively, we will be glad to be part of
this government.
In refusing this request, the government is in essence saying that it wants to turn our temporary separation into a permanent divorce.
I want to make it very clear that we will not return to this
government without a guarantee of real participation in the governing or the decision-making process.
We will never accept to be part of a Lebanon in which there is clear class demarcation along the lines of ancestry or
religion - like the so-called distinctions between the sons of masters and the sons of servants.
I personally will never accept the rule of the minority. These statements were made by Saad al-Hariri who suggested to me
this rule minority during the recent national consultation conference.
I responded that this will certainly cause the resignation of all the ministers in the government. This conversation was held way before the
presentation of the international tribunal issue.
I told him that if our request for true participation in the government is not answered positively, and it is natural that the majority retain the governing power, while
the minority serves as the opposition - and that if his cohorts are afraid of the Shiite question, then let them please appoint the Shiites that they deem appropriate and I will give them all my full support and backing.
I was personally told by Saad al-Hariri that he prefers to withdraw from the government and that we are giving the right to form the government instead.
I told him that this is illogical, because his party alliance constitutes the majority.
Therefore, I want to reiterate that either we have true participation in the government, or this temporary separation becomes a
permanent divorce.
Q: Mr. Speaker of the House of Representatives, would you then prefer to go to the streets (demonstrations) or have early elections?
MR. BERRI: I do not even want to consider these possibilities.
Q: What do you mean by that?
MR. BERRI: It means that I do not like the street language. I personally do not want the street language (violence).
Q: But you know that this choice exists, and I want to stress this point.
MR. BERRI: The conditions, and the electric atmosphere in Lebanon are bound to make these alternatives necessary, and this is unfortunate.
When I was attending the Asian parliament discussions here in Teheran, I was told that despite the issuing of the international tribunal draft and despite the refusal of our request, I was told of daily demonstrations that are
being organized by members of the majority bloc.
I do not know why the government insists on showing this false victory, as I said at the beginning of our dialogue.
Q: Mr. Speaker of the House of Representatives,
we know that these protests will be met with counter protests.
MR. BERRI: Exactly. That is why I said that I was completely opposed to the language of the streets.
I am going to tell you something new that I have
not said before. In the beginning of the national consultation conference, I told everyone that they are welcome to this conference, because we all have been rejected by the streets. I told them that we shall not want to be
thrown into using the language of streets.
I believe that any attempt to go for street protests will turn all of Lebanon into untold numbers of such streets. That is why I am completely opposed to going into the streets.
Q: Does this mean that you are absolutely against going into the streets, not today, not tomorrow and that this choice has never been considered by you?
MR. BERRI: I said before that I do not like the street
language, because we all may be transferred to (--inaudible--) streets. I also prefer to always find solutions through dialogue and agreements among all the Lebanese groups.
This does not mean that this alternative is
not being suggested in light of the existing sensitivities. Nevertheless, these methods have been put to use in my absence, whilst I am in Teheran, as I was informed and told you about.
Q: Mr. Speaker of the House of
Representatives, let us suppose that Prime Minister Siniora has submitted the resignation of his current government, and that the parliament has started discussions about forming another government, and that these discussions
have resulted in Mr. Siniora again being asked to form a new government.
What will this lead to?
MR. BERRI: This will be another democratic game, which no one can oppose, and here lies the whole dilemma.
When consolations were underway for the choice of prime minister, according to the constitutional procedures, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora received 100 percent support. This has never been accomplished during the entire history
of Lebanon. Even the martyred former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri did not come close to receiving 100 percent of all possible endorsements.
This means that of all the 128 representatives, everyone supported the selection
of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora.
What can you make of this fact?
To me this means that this government was a government of national consensus, a government of reconciliation and a government of collective
responsibilities. Therefore, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora received every possible of vote of the 128 representatives of the Lebanese parliament.
Then what are the causes of the current rift in this government? I am not
blaming Prime Minister Fouad Siniora for this rift. I asked the people around the table of national consultation about the possibility of restoring this government and returning it on the right tracks. I asked them about the
possibility of resorting to the same lines that were agreed upon at the time of its formation. We have never asked anything more than this.
I suggested the following points as the basis for this national consultation
conference. I suggested that there be no changes to the basic rights of all citizens, no changes in the prime minister's office, no new ministerial announcements, and no need for a new vote of confidence.
All that was
being asked is the rebuilding of this government around the basis agreed upon at the time of its formation.
Since that time, there have been many changes in positions, both on the side of the majority and the opposition,
that demand similar changes in the way things are being run. That is the whole problem.
Is this a crime that deserves the conditions that we have arrived at?
Q: Does this mean that you insist on having a one-third opposition bloc in any new government?
MR. BERRI: I have never talked about this mater. I have never mentioned the need for a one-third opposition bloc, or about a
one-third guarantee bloc, with all due respect to the people who have issued these statements.
I have only talked about a one-third participation share. I am requesting my right to participate based on a one-third share.
This is my right.
How else do you expect me to be in this government without having a part in the decision-making process? How can you expect me to accept this condition?
When this government was newly-formed, I
agreed to be a part of it based on this principle. At the time, the opposition group had nine ministers out of 24 ministerial positions. This means that we were more than one third of this government.
Q: Mr. Speaker of
the House of Representatives, don't you feel that you have been, in essence, protecting all the Lebanese and now you have become just a one party representative?
MR. BERRI: I want to take you back to April 2nd of this
year. I have already mentioned that I am willing to act as a servant for this national dialogue and a servant to all the Lebanese people. But when we sit around the national dialogue roundtable, I only represent one party as
the chairman of the Amal movement.
I was asked a similar question at the beginning of the national consultation conference during a press conference. I responded that I represented three parts. Yes, I will be a part that
represents my party and that if there is a dispute, I will act as another part. But when there is any opportunity for national conciliation and agreement, I will be more than happy to act as a servant.
Q: Mr. Nabih
Berri, Speaker of the House of Representatives in Lebanon, thank you very much for this interview.
END.
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