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Interview With Nabih Berri, Speaker of the Lebanese Parliament
(Note - The following was translated from Arabic)
Q: Ladies and gentlemen, our viewers, I want to welcome you to this special discussion with Mr. Nabih Mustafa Berri, Speaker
of the National Assembly, and member of 'Harakat Amal' (The Shiite Movement of Hope).
Mr. Berri is one of the major players interested in both the diplomatic and military efforts taking place in our region.
Mr.
Berri has been watching with us how Israel is destroying much of what he personally was involved in building, growing and protecting in the south during the past few years.
Mr. Berri has also been witness to the flow of
residents out of southern Lebanon to different places in the world.
Mr. Nabih Berri, welcome to our program.
You just had a meeting with the American ambassador in Lebanon. Did this meeting come as a continuation
of your talks with Secretary Rice yesterday?
NABIH BERRI: You might say so. The ambassador told me that Condoleezza Rice asked him to meet with me in order to clarify some points and to inform me of her talks in Israel.
This is what I concluded from his remarks.
Q: What about the atmosphere during this meeting? What answers did the ambassador give you during the meeting?
MR. BERRI: You might say that one of Secretary Rice's
initial demands has been circumvented. Yesterday, she demanded that Hezbollah fighters return to areas north of the Litani River. This demand was not mentioned during my meeting with the ambassador. It was replaced by disarming
the militias and creating a demilitarized zone. In other wards, it is a play on words, meaning really the same thing. This is what I learned from the meeting with the ambassador.
I also was led to believe that there is
interest in putting the disputed Shebaa farms on the discussion table. But without being precise in language or timing.
Q: Mr. Berri, is it true that the Shebaa Farms dispute was not mentioned during your meeting with
Condoleezza Rice, and that you received a reply to your inquiry about this subject much later, from the foreign ministry or the ambassador?
MR. BERRI: Yes and no. When Secretary Rice introduced the now famous basket of
issues, I immediately expressed my opposition and made it clear to her that this will not be good enough and will not lead to good results.
After the second and the third round of arguments, I said that I have not heard
or seen anything related to the Shabaa Farms in this basket. She then said that this has not been discussed with Israel yet.
I said that I am sure that this matter was indeed discussed with Israel, especially with the
recent delegation of United Nations representatives. She replied that this was possible and that she will investigate it and get back to me.
However, because of the consequent changes in the region immediately after this
meeting - specifically 55 minutes after this meeting and before Condoleezza Rice had arrived at the American embassy, the ambassador contacted the Lebanese foreign minister and informed him that Secretary Rice was not able to
give Mr. Berri a clear position on the Shebaa Farms.
She wanted me to know that the Shebaa Farms dispute will be included in the basket.
I replied that this is not our most pressing demand and that I am requesting
two things be implemented immediately. The first one is the ceasefire and the exchange of prisoners as soon as possible. I said that I will be responsible for arranging this very quickly.
The second is the return of
Lebanese refugees from the south. The rest of the issues will be discussed as we go along.
I'm very sure that everyone is ready to discuss all the matters with the utmost openness in order to bring back stability to the
entire region, and in order to stop the Israeli aggressions.
I added that we could not be expected to keep the lamb tied while letting the wolf go free.
She refused to add my suggestions to her basket. I then
concluded that we cannot make progress with this (American) basket alone, because this means the continuation of the killings and hostilities.
Q: Mr. Berri, I noticed that there is a general agreement amongst all, about
the preliminaries - and that is not true about priorities or the order of things.
What exactly did she suggest and what were her demands?
MR. BERRI: According to her, the basket must include an immediate
ceasefire, pushing Hezbollah fighters to areas north of the Litani River - this we learned about today - the deployment of the Lebanese army in the demilitarized zone, the deployment of the United Nations Emergency Forces for
an additional two or three months at the common borders and the creation of a new international force to replace this United Nation's Emergency force.
The rebuilding program of Lebanon can begin only after all these
conditions are implemented. Once this rebuilding has begun, the Lebanese refugees will be allowed to return to their homes in the south.
My answer to this plan was that the return of the Lebanese refugees, whose numbers
exceed hundreds of thousands, must come first. These people cannot be expected to remain refugees for a long period of two to three months, as envisioned by this plan. This is simply dangerous and is unacceptable.
This
problem, if not immediately solved, will threaten the stability of Lebanon, its government and the fragile unity of the Lebanese people. The entire Lebanese population is about 3-4 million. When about a million homes are being
evacuated, this means that about half of the Lebanese nation are refugees. This is a very dangerous matter.
How can anyone talk about these things before the implementation of a ceasefire? Look at what is happening at
Bint Jbail?
Q: Yes, but in your opinion, what is being demanded from the Lebanese people?
Do we need more observers in order to make the Israeli invasion a 'fait accompli'? There is a big question mark.
MR.
BERRI: I have previously addressed this point on many occasions and during numerous interviews. Now I want to take this opportunity to thank the Arab media, to thank every reporter, every station and every satellite for their
continuous coverage of this human problem, not to mention the national problem. But, I want to direct our attention to one matter which has so far escaped the spotlights. I am speaking about the Israeli original intentions.
Was this invasion indeed a reaction to the kidnapping of the two soldiers, or was it a predetermined agenda waiting for the right opportunity?
I must clearly state that it has become completely evident that this was
not a reaction to the kidnapping of the two soldiers. Proof of this exists in our discussions yesterday, during which the issue of the two soldiers was never mentioned. I was the one suggesting the implementation of an
immediate exchange.
I also want to take this opportunity to address the parents of the kidnapped Israeli soldiers and to tell them that the Lebanese government is not the ones holding your sons. It is your government
that is preventing their release. Your government and its army do not want an exchange and are not willing to discuss this issue at all.
I am the only one insisting on discussing it, and on it being included in the first
steps together with the ceasefire.
During this ceasefire period, this exchange will happen. So far, I did not receive any response to these suggestions.
What then is the real purpose behind the Israeli
aggressions? The answer lies on two fronts, both relating to Lebanon and its position in the region and the Arab world.
These ramifications must be clear to the Arab media and the Lebanese public in particular. Israel
has always seen Lebanon as a dangerous example which threatens its continued existence for two reasons. The first is its unique structure and make up. The second one is economic.
Everyone knows that Lebanon has about 17
or 18 factions, or religious groups which have managed to live freely and democratically together in a unique way. This matter does not sit well with Israel's vision, which represents one nation and one race.
The Israeli
system is based on racial discrimination and inequality amongst its citizens. Lebanon is a good example of how different people can live peacefully together in one area. For the sake of its future in Palestine, Israel must
learn how to facilitate Muslims, Jews and Christians living together in peace and equality like they live in Lebanon.
This Lebanese example is not desired by Israel, and therefore it must be destabilized and destroyed
when possible.
The second reason might give you a clue about the timing of the Israeli aggression. As you well know, at the start of the 80s there was a sharp increase in fuel prices. This sharp increase in prices was
supposed to benefit the Arab world, including Lebanon.
You know what happened in 1982, and how Beirut was completely destroyed. We also heard how the Israeli Prime minister openly declared that he had no prior knowledge
or prior approval of (Ariel) Sharon's invasion plans, and how he planned to reach Beirut. We also know how this war had started. It began as a reaction to the failed assassination attempt of the Israeli ambassador in London.
Now there is even a sharper increase in fuel prices, which followed the September 11th attacks in New York.
What will the Arab nations do with this increase in their wealth? Their first preference is of course to
invest in the Arab world and in the Lebanese free markets, in particular. We know, as all Lebanese people know, the extent of the Arab investment which has been flowing into Lebanon during the past few years.
Israel does
not want these huge financial resources to be invested in the Lebanese stock exchange. It wants it to --
(Cross talk)
-- Please let me finish. The Lebanese 'apples and oranges', the Lebanese economy, the languages
present in Lebanon, all of these represent an economic challenge to Israel. Israel wants to be able to be the only one capable of taking in these financial resources in the region. It wants no real commercial competition. These
two factors represent the basis for and the timing of the Israeli operation in Lebanon. The beneficiaries are well known.
Q: Do you believe that the timing of the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers was not good?
When was this operation originally planned?
MR. BERRI: No sir. The plan for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers was announced publicly way before. It had begun immediately after the last prisoner exchange during which
Israel refused to release some important Lebanese prisoners it had promised to release before, specifically Samir Kuntar.
Specifically, Hezbollah has repeatedly stated that this exchange was not implemented as planned.
Didn't we witness an attempt by Hezbollah to kidnap Israeli soldiers in the Ghajar area just a few months ago?
Didn't Hezbollah lose three martyrs in this failed attempt?
Q: Mr. Chairman - in this context
now - do you think that Secretary Rice will return to the region and to Lebanon?
MR. BERRI: In any case, even if she does not come back, her 'angels' are present here - she has help here.
I say from now, from now,
logically it is not possible - I talk on my behalf - to achieve a process led by the United States of America.
Firstly, I don't want to respond, but the action should be applicable. The only basket that Madam Rice
brought with her yesterday was inapplicable, and can only be applied in Lebanon with the creation of internal Lebanese interest. This matter is very dangerous.
I explained this to her and I also explained to His
Excellency the Ambassador today. Thus, I insist on the two stages, and I am ready to discuss the second stage positively through a peaceful dialogue summit - not now. Only when there is ceasefire, can I gather the people for
dialogue.
Q: Your Excellency, the risks that you are afraid of yourself are related to the special social and political Lebanese mix of the weight that the refugees place on the rest of the Lebanese, this from one side.
Or are you afraid of the second stage that is related to resolution 1559, the Taef Agreement and the arms of the resistance? Will this create internal strife?
MR. BERRI: What's left of 1559? Look they make things
look very big. You know that resolution 1559, after the departure of the Syrian Brothers from Lebanon - what's left of resolution 1559? The only thing that is left is whether to put it on the discussion table or not.
We
have reached decisions on these issues - all of them except the last point (--inaudible--) today.
(Cross talk)
By the way, today is the 25th of the month, and this issue should have been ended. It would have ended
with Lebanese unanimity or semi-unanimity believe me.
I am certain about this matter because I discussed it with the Brothers in Hezbollah and I knew that they had a positive feeling towards this issue - things were
going fine. As part of the plan to have unity on this issue, Hezbollah maintained unity amongst the Lebanese people.
(Cross talk)
Q: -- do you anticipate a ceasefire at this stage of the Israeli comprehensive war
against Lebanon - well in a week, ten days?
What is happening?
MR. BERRI: What is happening is (off mike). I am truly sorry about what I read today - that at the time that Mr. Bush is sending donations of $30
million of humanitarian aid to Lebanon - despite the magnitude of the donation, it is very little compared to the size of damages.
At the time that we are thanking him for this humanitarian act and the contribution of
the USA in this humanitarian relief, I really wonder about what has been said about him - that he has not yet set a date for a ceasefire.
He has left the matters to the Israeli Defense Forces, to do whatever they wish -
to occupy more land and to set more troops on the ground so as to use them as pressure in their negotiations, on the suggestions to be applicable, and to warm up the minds of the Lebanese people to pass these suggestions. This
is the goal.
I would like to ask about something. The largest Arab country is protesting against us now and the smallest Arab country - the people and the regimes before Israel (--inaudible--) any regime said that the
war will last six days. Well, 12 to 13 days passed and they are still in Maroun Ras and around Maroun Ras.
Maroun Ras is a crown on our heads, and it did not present Martyrs from today. The Amal Movement and Hezbollah
are from Maroun Ras.
Ultimately, how big is Maroun Ras? It is not Los Angeles, but it is a very small and humble town. It is a town on the top of the mountains and can only accept eagles. They (the Israelis) have not
been able to leave the perimeter of this town for seven or eight days.
So this Israeli army which wanted to avenge our victory in the year 2000 is once again defeated before itself and even in an unbalanced war.
Q: Your Excellency, what is the latest information about Bint Jbail?
MR. BERRI: They reached Maroun Ras and went towards the vocational school. They tried to move forward and they were unable. They lost some tanks --
(Cross talk)
Q: This is today?
MR. BERRI: No, yesterday. Also the last tank that was stuck last night in Maroun Ras was hit. They realized that they could not come near (--inaudible--). They went to Masoud
Hill - it is to the West of Bint Jbail, between Ein Ibel and Tira. They came in parachutes and were airborne. They were not able to move forward despite the airdrop they executed. Now Bint Jbail is being destroyed house by
house.
On this occasion, I would like to tell the USA, in Bint Jbeil there are about forty-five to fifty thousand people, and twenty-eight thousand of those are in the USA. Twenty-eight thousand of them have American
citizenship, but when the issue is related to Israel, then not even American citizenship helps.
Q: Mr. Chairman, Ms. Rice held two meetings, one with you and one with Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora and the Foreign
Minister.
Did she hear the same things, Mr. Chairman?
MR. BERRI: What I know is that there is coordination most of the time between the Prime Minister and myself. What I knew is that President Siniora insisted on
having a ceasefire before anything.
(Cross talk)
Q: Comprehensive and immediate.
MR. BERRI: They always try to create some excuses that Lebanon is required to have full authority over Lebanese territories.
Who is against this? Nobody is against the Taef Agreement - nobody is against the Taef Agreement. There is a difference between the Lebanese resistance and being under Lebanese sovereignty. (Inaudible), the enemy that is
knocking on your door each day regarding this issue.
Thus, there are no differences in the intentions between us and Prime Minister Siniora, in that our moves should always be presented and coordinated, thank God.
Q: Another question Mr. Chairman, are you directly authorized to contact Hezbollah?
Why did this happen, since there are Hezbollah ministers in the government?
Do you talk with Mr. (Hassan) Nasrallah, Mr. Speaker?
MR. BERRI: There has been so much confusion on this matter. Certainly knowledge that I don't deny, an honor that I claim to represent Hezbollah. Hezbollah and the Amal movement came out of the same womb.
Leader Sayyed Mousa al-Sadr is the (--inaudible--) for all of us.
I was authorized to negotiate the issue of female prisoners and their issue, and I said that the Lebanese government must lead the negotiations. There are
some people who mixed up the issues and it appeared as if I represent Hezbollah. Thus, that's why I said this is an honor that I don't claim.
For example, the stance yesterday - I say it very clearly - had Hezbollah
agreed to these stances, I would have rejected them yesterday - I would have rejected them on behalf of the Amal movement and on behalf of Lebanon. I see danger in this issue closing in on Lebanon, and I am afraid to reach
(--inaudible--) chaos with regard to this issue.
On my behalf and along with all the Lebanese leaders - with no exception - we know the best interests of Lebanon, and we know that through our dialogue as Lebanese, we
could achieve things with the help of the international community - but not imposed on us.
(Cross talk)
Q: Did you talk with the Secretary General of the party? Did you talk with him personally?
MR. BERRI: No.
Q: Recently?
MR. BERRI: Since the 12th (of July) there was no verbal, telephone or visual contact between us. There are always mutual meetings (--inaudible--)
Q: The matter is taking place through members of the party, in one way or another?
MR. BERRI: No - from - to - over - about - etcetera.
Q: Mr. Speaker, you talked - I was in Southern Lebanon, and I was in Southern
Lebanon during this war. I tell you very clearly Mr. Speaker that people in some villages - especially those on the borders - are honestly with the resistance.
Some people ask questions - hasn't the time come for this
country to rest? Hasn't the time come for the people of this country to get down from the tree? For 60 years the Lebanese people have been carrying over their shoulders the burden of this crisis in the region - these are
question asked by the simple people who support the resistance. For how long?
MR. BERRI: This talk is more than right. This is the sense of the truth.
Hasn't the time come for this knight to get of his horse?
Hasn't the time come for Israel to stop its attacks on Lebanon?
I witnessed 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996 and 1999, and I assure you that the bombs and the lava that were thrown at Lebanon in this war equals everything that was
thrown at Lebanon during all those wars, including the 1982 war in which Beirut was destroyed - I am not exaggerating.
The thing that forced me to tell Ms. Rice yesterday that the lava and the destruction that took place
over Lebanon equals the effect of a nuclear bomb, a nuclear bomb - to place this in the position of the aggrieved, the occupied and in the place of the subjugated, and at the same time the oppressor is innocent!
I would
like to ask a question (--inaudible--) emergency forces (--inaudible--) they say that these forces must be placed in Lebanon just for the sake of discussion now - I am not going into details. I just want to tell you about the
opening which I wanted to (-- inaudible--).
I would like to ask a question. Why haven't they (multi-national forces) been placed on the Israeli side?
Who was violating the Blue Line more?
I would like to
start counting from here, from the year 2000 until now, let's say that the Lebanese violated the line more than 100 times, although it is less than 100. Just before the war the number of violations by the Israelis was 11,782
times - by air, land and sea. I am not talking about the assassination attempts that took place in Sidon and in (--inaudible--).
Now, it is being required to disarm the Lebanese side but not the Israeli side. I would
like to tell you something, what the Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Annan said yesterday. He said that we cannot disarm Hezbollah by force, not by force alone but also by an internal Lebanese dialogue.
There also must be an internal Lebanese dialogue to carry out resolution 1559 (Off mike).
This issue should be solved for the long term, to create a situation that is different from the current one. The Lebanese Army
must become capable of protecting the security along its borders, etcetera. This is the talk that I gave yesterday. Give us a space to operate as Lebanese. Nabih Berri did not say this. This was said by Kofi Annan.
Q:
What is the limit that Lebanon might remain below in relation to the demands that are given to us?
There is a decisive anxiety amongst everybody - the refugees and others. What is the final acceptable limit that is being
presented to us?
MR. BERRI: Well, I can't work on two lines. I can only work on one. My brain is not complex - it is simple.
I would like to know first - I want ceasefire.
During my lifetime, neither have I
seen, heard or read, neither in World War I or II, and not even in any war in the world, that a war or a conflict ended without resorting to a ceasefire first, except for this war where they don't want a ceasefire in the
beginning - why?
I want a ceasefire, and I am ready for a quick exchange, and I say this without conditions. As long as I am authorized, then you can't be honest and dishonest at the same time. The third issue is that
people start to return quickly and only then could we move to the next stage.
In the next stage, everything that is required of me, I will demand it on the Israeli side. It is not required --
(Cross talk)
END.
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